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Classical Marxists believe the Messiah has not yet come and that he must come in the West to be authentic

Marxist-Leninists believe Lenin was the Messiah, but that only his Second Coming will create a classless society

@kittybecca The way a lot of leftists await the revolution is *very* reminiscent of christians awaiting the rapture. Something about the incessant dependence on a higher power to come save them.

@GreenandBlack agreed, and i was also poking fun at historical materialism there, but in a broader sense it also applies to leftists in general

Judaism that says that the Messiah will not come until humans get their shit together - until the olam has been tikkun'd, the world has been repaired. generally this has implied Jews following God's commandments (meh for me), but there has also always been a strong social justice component to it.

@GreenandBlack i like the idea of humans actually having to take action to make the world a better place before any sort of Messiah is possible. among other things it provides a much better avenue for action in the here and now.

theology 

@kittybecca while I certainly like that more than the christian conception, I don't think I understand what the role of the messiah figure would be here. Like, doesn't everyone making the world a better place to live in negate the need for a messiah figure?

What role would they play in a world that has already improved without them?

theology 

@GreenandBlack i'm not best equipped to answer this because i haven't been any sort of theist in a long time

theology 

@GreenandBlack
Generally I think that the Messiah is sort of a book end of history because there are miracles that are supposed to happen. We do the thing, the Messiah comes and assumes the kingship of Israel, the dead are resuscitated
@kittybecca

theology 

@derpayatz @GreenandBlack yeah i think you nailed it; i was trying to think of a way to put it. there are going to be things done that humans simply cannot do, such as the resurrection of the dead and their final judgment - and iirc, the worst result of this isn't anything like xtian hell because it's temporary, more like a purgatory

the final judgment of course is also based on how we lived our lives in this world, meaning sitting around and waiting for it is utterly self-defeating

theology 

@derpayatz @GreenandBlack there's the concepts of this world and the world to come, and the latter according to judaism will be good in ways that this world can't be

personally i don't think hashem has a very good track record on judgements and i'd be entirely ok with the "repaired" version of this world...

theology 

@derpayatz @GreenandBlack but the theological role this served was answering the question, "why is there no justice in the world" by saying that if we do our best to pursue relative justice, there will one day be absolute justice

and the thing a lot of atheist Jews glean from this is simply the part about "don't worry about an idyllic future, just pursue social justice in this world right now to the best of your ability"

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